http://blockyeshiva-stl.org/donate.shtml

Of course, studetns at Block are not educated in my image or anyone else’s. They are taught a respect and a passion for Jewish tradition and the skills to succeed in every facet of material and spiritual life. Talk to some of our students and graduates. I guarantee you’ll be impressed.

I also encourage every Jew to read read Rabbi Goldson’s pieces-and if one agrees with his philosophy that he/she make healthy contributions to Block Yeshiva so that more young Jewish children can be educated in his image. If you don’t agree, consider making a contribtuioon to an Israeliof US based based mainstream Jewish charity and suggesting to your Federation solicitor that while you will NOT reduce your Federation contribution you beleive that supporting Bloch is bad for the community.

Nevertheless, sometimes it is necessary to engage those who refuse to listen or learn for the benefit of those who might be influenced by hearing their assertions without hearing responses. To that end, these exchanges may have been worth the investment of time for those who sincerely seek answers to some of the questions Mr. Pressman raised — questions that could have been expressed respectfully had the questioner not been firmly committed to the objectives of ridiculing, stereotyping, misrepresenting, and dividing the Jewish community.

And so I encourage those readers who have not wearied of this thread to review the back and forth, to recognize for yourselves how Mr. Pressman offers no cogent defense for his positions and disregards the arguments that easily refute his assertions.

Of course, blog comments are hardly the place for meaningful philosophic discourse. Therefore, I am adding a list of links that respond to Mr. Pressman’s questions more thoroughly. For those who sincerely seek answers, I believe these will provide much food for thought.

As for those who continue in the effort to reason with Norm Pressman, I advise you to turn your attention elsewhere. He has enjoyed his 15 seconds of notoriety. It’s time to move on.

Articles on Torah and Science
http://www.torah.org/features/holydays/reason.html
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0401/disorder.html
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0903/goldson_2003_09_26.php3

Torah and Morality
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0501/righteousness.asp

Torah and History
http://torahideals.wordpress.com/2008/08/01/what-is-the-definition-of-objective-history/

I have been essentially asked how I can be a Jew if I don’t believe in the truth of the Torah. Here is my answer:

We have a common heritage which probably can be traced to the 8th or 9th century BC (or maybe earlier if you believe that Kings David and Solomon were real as opposed to mythical.) After the Diaspora our ancestors kept certain customs and invented others such as mitizah b’peh and all of the Hasidic customs.

Over time, our ancestors,especially those in France and Germany as opposed to Lithuania and eastern Europe started to realize the Torah was a set of myths as opposed to the word of a non-existent deity who watches over humanity. The key is this set of myths bound our more recent enlightened ancestors together even though most of them realized they were myths.

I enjoy reading parts of the Torah. “The Rape of Dinah” for instance is an excellent allegory of how our people evened the odds and beat a superior foe. The story of Ruth is an example of how we are open to accept converts. The book of Esther is a primary on intermarriage.

When the first scribe reduced Genesis to writing do you think he had the benefit of the Hubble telescope-did he know the special and general theories of relativity let alone Newtonian mechanics? Did he understand Darwin?.

And while I am open to the possibility that somewhere in he universe something happen which somehow created the first DNA strand and it was brought to earth or that there is some unknowable pre-big bang force which created the big bang-I see no evidence that there is a God like force in the form of a big man in the sky who wrote the Torah and watches over us. Further, I don’t think you really do either and I’ll deal with that question later today or tomorrow.

I’ll re-state the question as follows: “Can the only people of antiquity to have survived antiquity continue to survive as a group once the myth that previously bound it together is exposed as a myth?” and “Is it necessary to pretend that we believe that the myth is real for us to survive?”

You and your orthodox friends either believe in the myths or in the case of modern orthodox don’t necessarily believe in them but believe the rules of the Torah must be obeyed to preserve our tribe. I and most of my mainstream Jewish friends don’t believe in the myths.

If you were correct that it was necessary to perpetuate the Torah’s myths to preserve us as a group I don’t think I could, for example, pretend that it was necessary to stone a woman who had tricked her husband into believing she was a virgin on the wedding date.

The whole idea of the reform, and possibly the conservative movement, is to try and keep us together in a world which has seen the Torah’s myths unraveled If these movements fail, our tribe may well go out of existence-that’s why you as an orthodox Rabbi should praise the reform and conservative movements instead of trying to subvert them.

More to the point, yet again he chooses to ignore that his questions about Torah law and sensitivity have been answered. Since he does not like the answers, he simply continues his tirade.

To answer his last last question, I think it likely that if a community Yom HaShoah memorial service were held in the JCC and without a woman singing, most if not all of the Orthodox rabbis in the community would be in attendance. If the organizers truly desire the participation of the Orthodox community, the logical approach would be to include a member of the Orthodox community in the planning stages to address any issues that may conflict with Torah law.

However, I have a question of my own for Mr. Pressman. Since he rejects the halachic basis of the Orthodox for not participating, would he require the Torah observant community to abandon any and every religious principle in the name of Jewish unity? Would he require us to violate our Sabbath or holiday if the program organizers scheduled the memorial service for Saturday afternoon or Yom Kippur? If the organizers arranged a non-kosher buffet reception, would he require the Orthodox to forsake their dietary laws in the name of communal harmony? If so, is nothing sacred? If not, how does he know where to draw the line for a belief system he holds in such open contempt?

When did Norman Pressman become the ultimate arbiter of Jewish morality?

How ironic that Mr. Pressman insists that his fellow Jews compromise their religious values to prove their solidarity with the victims of the Nazis, those hideous creatures who delighted in coercing pious Jews in the death camps to trample upon their own laws and principles.

Most Jews in the the mainstream Jewish community recognize leaders, rabbis and cantors of either sex (or sexual orientation–the later even if they are orthodox). You don’t. Suppose next year’s program was in the J gymnasium and had women cantors, reform and conservative rabbis on the Bimah, with the women cantors not singing but carrying the Torahs. You are the talmudic scholar; I am a mere simple son. Tell me, would that satisfy you? Or, am I correct that haredi rabbis are forbidden to appear on the same bimah with apostate rabbis and women? Further, if there were prayers recited, would you require the women to be behind (or on one side of) a mehitzah? Finally, Rabbi, you are incorrect–I have not insulted you or called you names. I have not suggested that you are not a Jew. I have merely quoted your own words completely and without editing.

Mr. Pressman fails to understand what so many in modern Western culture fail to understand: some people still have values that they refuse to sacrifice before the insidious gods of political correctness and moral equivalence.

According to Torah law, Jewish men are prohibited from hearing a woman sing. Is it a VALUE or a PRINCIPLE among the non-observant to have a woman cantor? Is it more discriminatory against women to have a male cantor than it is discriminatory against men to have a female cantor?

What Mr. Pressman really means by compromise is that others should compromise their principles for no reason except because he wants them to. There is no defensible reason for not having designed the Yom HaShoah ceremony in a way that the entire Jewish community could participate without being forced to choose between halachic observance and Jewish unity. Those who force others to choose one over the other are responsible, whether consciously or inadvertantly, of dividing the community.

As are those who misrepresent people who live according to religious standards and values.

Indeed, some Orthodox rabbis have concluded that certain leniencies based upon the Talmudic record allow them to bend this rule; others have concluded that those leniencies are not adequate to permit compromise in this case. Neverthgeless, the rabbis within the Orthodox community who come down on different sides of the issue do not excoriate and denounce one another. They understand that within the boundaries of Torah observance there are legitimately different opinions arrived at through the methodology handed down by our sages, and they are therefore able to respectfully disagree. This is vastly different from the wholesale condemnation of Torah tradition with no justification other than a list of scientists, philosophers, and thinkers.

Ultmiately, it is the Torah system that teaches and instills critical thinking, commitment to values and standards, respectful debate, and the ideal of Jewish unity. Of course, we are all human beings; there may be individuals whose tempers lead them to stray across the lines of propriety, and we may all occasionally err in our choice of words.

Be that as it may, courtesy and civility are not synonmous or even compatible with political correctness and moral equivalence. I don’t have to acknowledge that every conceivable expression of human behavior is a legitimate “life-style choice” or that every ideology is morally sound in order to be respectful. What I must do — if I have a shred of intellectual integrity — is to be sure I understand the opposing position before I condemn it as petty or irrational.

A fair compromise would be to have the program at the J with celebrants from the entire community including female cantors, orthodox rabbis and female rabbis-But I understand that certain segments of the orthodox community (including you?) won’t even appear on the same stage with non-orthodox rabbis or females cantors and rabbis? Correct me if I’m wrong.

Herein lies the ultimate hypocracy: refusing to accomodate the religious sensitivies of the Orthodox, then using their inability to participate as an excuse to denounce them as intolerant.